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Yvonne: Welcome everybody to All About Animals Radio. Today we're going to talk about elephants in Japan and I'm really happy to welcome Ulara from Elephants in Japan.com. Welcome. Lovely to have you here today.

Ulara: Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Y - And I'm going to dive straight in and let Ulara tell us about her organisation because for the rest of us in Europe and other countries, Japan seems to be a bit of an outpost. We see pictures of elephants on slabs. Literally it's a barn, a concrete slab. They walk in, they walk out and that's it. And it's going to be really interesting to find out more about why such a high tech country doesn't seem to be so high tech when it comes to elephants. And you know, Ulara and organisation have done a lot of in depth work over the years. So I'll pass over to you Ulara if you could give us an overview please of your organisation and what you'd like to tell us about the Elephants in Japan.

Ulara: Yeah, thank you so much for that great introduction. So Elephants in Japan is really working to expose the plight of elephants in captivity. Really, I mean, not limited just to Japan, but because I think that fewer, there is less attention on the country, there's an opportunity for us to focus in. And as you mentioned, we're really also looking to educate folks on, you know, elephant welfare in general and sort of the actions that they can take to make a difference and improve the welfare of elephants in Japan and elsewhere. So you mentioned that Japan, despite being such a seemingly modern country, you know, we see these images of elephants in captivity in what appear to be very, you know, outdated and, you know, obviously inhumane conditions. And so I think that is a really notable sort of disconnect, right? And something that we don't think makes sense given the country's advancement in many other parts of society and also this general openness of the Japanese public, you know, to really show compassion to all beings and, you know, their receptiveness to these types of progress, right, that is much needed. So I think, yeah, there's a gap. And if you go on our website, there is a lot of information on there that we probably don't have the time today to get too in-depth, you know, into, but why sort of these zoos came to be in the post-war era in Japan and some of the challenges that are faced in modernizing them and, you know, bringing them up to par and also, you know, I think the idea that basically zoos in general, right, are not the ideal environment for wild animals.

Yvonne: So with Japan, how did it start? Where did they get these elephants from? And really, why haven't they given these elephants any space? I mean, they literally have for anybody that's not seen it. You know, you're probably talking about an elephant, an elephant's width and then they have these huge ditches and there's one particularly heartbreaking elephant that likes to stretch out and try and touch people with their trunk and everybody's worried she'll fall in the ditch one day. And we just don't quite understand the culture of, you know, on one hand, you know, we have visions of pretty Japanese gardens and, you know, a lot of people will say it's a lovely country to visit and everything else, but then there is this, this, as you say, disconnect and this gap on why the zoos won't progress at all because, you know, we've seen bad zoos, we've seen zoos that do all kinds of horrible things, but this is quite at the bottom of the pile, isn't it? So when you talk to whoever runs the zoos, I don't know, are they all government owned? You know, how receptive are they to talking to people?

A - Yeah, I think the majority of zoos in Japan are public, so they're publicly funded. So one of the, you know, quickest and easiest quote unquote excuses, right, that immediately comes in resistance of asks to make improvements is the funding, right, and the lack of resources. And so that's one. And then some of them are private. So the one that you mentioned where Miyako, the elephant, the solitary elephant has that really treacherous, you know, moat around her that we know is a very outdated, you know, type of enclosure for elephants because it is notably so dangerous. And there have been cases of elephants falling into them and injuring themselves critically. And so, you know, it's just, I mean, it's unbelievable how they have been able to continue on in this way. And there's a multitude of factors that play into this, right? One of them is, I think, a grave lack of education and knowledge amongst the Japanese public, because if we think about the public zoos, you know, the Japanese taxpayers and citizens would have an opportunity to have some sort of meaningful impact if they did, you know, raise with they were a little more aware of the issue and they were able to, you know, put some pressure on the local governments. And then I think that there's a big knowledge gap in the actual folks that work within the zoo environment and the zoo community. So I can give you an example, like a real world example that really resonated with me and sort of showed some of the major underlying currents and issues, right, that have led to this unfortunate state for elephants and other animals in captivity and otherwise in Japan. So back in 2016, I visited the Inokashira Zoo in Tokyo in a very affluent neighborhood with the elephant expert, Carol Buckley, who you may know started the first elephant sanctuary in North America. And she's now running a sanctuary in Georgia. And she's also the founder and president of Elephant Aid International. So her and I traveled to Japan in 2016 to go and meet with the leadership of the zoo that had kept Hanako, our original elephant that really was the catalyst for this entire effort in our organization's mission and vision. And she was a 69 year old elephant at the time who had been kept in solitary confinement for over 60 years in a incredibly barren concrete tiny enclosure at this Tokyo Zoo. And all she had was a tire and a plastic straw to stimulate her. And she had no companionship. And really she was like, she was in a catatonic state psychologically because of the situation that she had been put in. And so when we went and visited her and spoke to the zoo and Carol ended up creating this 24 point report at the end of our two day trip, which she presented to the zoo and it had short, medium and long term recommendations on what they could do to improve her welfare. So the zoo had four keepers that would look after Hanako daily. And they would see her about 20 minutes twice a day when she was in her indoor tiny, tiny indoor enclosure, really just in a cage that was slightly larger than her body. And at that time they would, and she would be kept in there for something like 15, 16 hours a day, right? In darkness, completely alone. And so these keepers, they would come in and they would feed her, right? And they would brush her. And there was a time midday after she was finished being displayed in her barren concrete outdoor enclosure. And they would bring her into this equally small and barren concrete enclosure. And so she would go in and there was this moment where she had been like a statue, like a zombie of an elephant standing in her outdoor enclosure for the four or five forced hours a day. And then they went to put her inside and suddenly she started, you know, activating, right? And at the time I didn't really know how to read elephant behavior as well as someone like Carol, who has been working with them intimately for decades. And she, she goes, wow, she just said, wow, she's transformed, you know? And as Hanako went into her indoor enclosure, her ears started flapping. She started huffing, you know, she, she just went from being a statue to an animal for a moment. And later, Carol explained to me that these 20 tiny 20 minute windows she got twice a day was the only time she was experiencing any stimulation or pleasure. Because in the absence of having any companionship or any stimulation, she had grown attached to this precious time she got with these four keepers twice a day. And, you know, they would sweep her back, they would feed her and that was what she lived for. And, you know, here's the tragedy is that when we explain this to her keepers, they went, wow, we thought she was angry. Like they had interpreted the signs of her pleasure as signs of her anger. Right? And so that was really quite startling to me in that I thought, how is this possible? This is grave misunderstanding, right? And then we later found out that the zoo said, you know, we're a public zoo, and we charge a minimal entrance fee. We've got all these other animals, right, that also need care. We've got a certain amount of staff, and they are allocated a certain amount of time with each animal. And so each keeper had, I can't remember the exact number, but they had a, you know, say five different animals that they cared for. But none of them were elephant specialists or elephant experts, right? And so the idea was really that they, they, they're just not, they're not specialists. And they also just are very practical in that sense of, you know, it's all about time allocation. It's about fairness. It's about balancing the needs of the customer, you know, which is the public visitor, the staff, our staff that we have, our limited staff and the animals. And that's kind of just how they looked at it. And so maybe that story gives you an idea of sort of one of the currents that's the problem, right? Which is that they simply don't have the, even the basic knowledge to be able to offer an elephant or any other animal, the, the specialized care and that it, that's at a very basic level, right?

Y - What makes me wonder though, is, you know, I may be wrongly, I think of Japan as having a good education system. And I also think that if someone has got a job, then you generally aim to do well by it. So from that, I sort of take the, my question would be, well, why didn't they pick up a book in all the 60 years and learn about elephants? Why didn't they think to do it? And it might just be the obvious sometimes evades us, but also what happened after you told them? Did, did they change their, their way of dealing? What happened?

A - Yeah, this was great. I genuinely believe that they cared about Hanako, like I do. They, they, you know, express concern. They were opening their doors to us, you know, they didn't even mind the media, you know, covering the issue. And so they, the feeling we got was we love this elephant, we need help. We don't know what else to do. And they were very receptive. And right after we left, they told the Associated Press that they were going to begin enacting some of the changes that Carol had recommended. And, you know, within two months, they made some, you know, I would say small but meaningful changes that would have impacted Hanako's day to day life. So one of the immediate things they did is increase the time that the keepers spent with her daily, because, you know, we had explained to them that that was really important for her quality of life. The other thing they did is that we had noticed that she was shivering in her indoor enclosure in May. I think it was in May, no, it was in March. And so that was because there was a big gaping opening that was left open during the day and the wind was blowing in and chilling her. So they put up some plastic flaps to, you know, protect her from the wind. Another thing they did is they pulled back the crowds because they were getting too close to her. And one of the observations that Carol made was that she was disturbed by the crowds being up close. And so they were starting to make those changes. And I do believe because she was, you know, and they all are so intelligent, you know, there's a story about her. She was a particularly sensitive elephant. And so there was this one story we learned that when the person that came and wiped the bars of her enclosure in the morning, her outdoor enclosure was different, she would become more resistant to going out there. Like she was very observant, you know, very cautious. And so I think that she must have noticed the changes and it did make an impact on her day to day life. Right. And so, and of course, we all wish these changes could be much more sweeping, like a sanctuary or a better environment. But I think the most important thing is that in an elephant's day to day life, she's the one that has to live it, right? If there's even a marginal small improvement, then that's what matters. And that's what we can we can do as we push towards the ultimate goal. So as they were making these changes, we were frequently in communication with them learning about them. And she unfortunately within two months had a heart attack and died. Oh, no. And that was thanks to over nearly half a million people around the world, signing a petition that I created, you know, after learning about her situation, and, and that really led to this international coverage of her. And she was the elephant that began at all, because up until then, I don't think most of the world's world's public knew that Japan had this elephant, you know, in elephants in captivity situation, because it's such a tiny country. And there are actually 100 elephants, approximately right now living in captivity in Japan. And so most people don't are not aware of that. And a lot of that's a huge sorry to interrupt. That's a huge amount. I mean, incredible. Maybe my, you know, school geography taught me that most of a lot of Japan was, you know, mountains and other things. And so is it is it a lack of space that that's one of the things that's one of the things we've learned that the public consciousness is because the humans live in such tiny spaces. Their concept is that on scale, the animals also so there's a cultural thing, right. The other thing I was going to mention is you said, why didn't, why don't these people educate themselves? Well, the good news is the younger generations of zookeepers are and Hanako's favorite of the four zookeepers she had was this younger woman. And Carol said she likes that one. And she was very young, like fresh out of school, maybe even an intern. And we know that there are students now at the University of Kyoto, for instance, where Dr. Keith Lindsay, who we've worked, you know, in partnering, yeah, who wrote our report and has been a great voice and advocate for the situation and flight of elephants in Japan. He visited the University of Kyoto, they invited him to speak to animal welfare students that are, you know, so I think there is going to be a change. And I've recently also heard that there's a new term that's come out in the country called they're calling it animal welfare, which is really new because it's in the past activism has been quite looked upon negatively in Japanese society, because it unlike, you know, countries in the West in Japan, we're all about the collective, right, and considering everybody else, and we often do not voice our resistance against authority. And so I think this new, you know, there has been a resistance, if you hear animal, you know, advocacy in the past, it's been looked upon as radical, right. But now I hear that there's a softer term that's actually being used in the public discourse and like, on major television programs and things like that. So I think things are potentially changing, but there is an old school sort of bureaucratic, you know, system there that I think is limiting, unfortunately, what you're speaking to, for example, Miyako, you mentioned her, she's the 49 year old elephant that has been living in captivity and solitude her entire life, she was brought from Thailand on a boat as a six month old baby elephant. And since then, she has lived in those pictures you've seen, many people have seen over 400,000 people have signed the petition to help her share has tweeted about her. So you know, she's gotten that exposure. And she is a very similar to Hanako in that she's living in that just horrifically, you know, inhumane and deprived environment, right with the concrete and the we mentioned the extremely dangerous moat. So with Miyako, she has had one keeper her entire life. And we've learned that he actually cares about her. But he is a he's like a how do I describe this? He's, he's not an elephant passionate about elephants, the job fell onto his lap. He's a government worker, he wanted a safe job, he's got a family, you know, and he, he clocks in and out. And it's just a job like any other. It's like imagine someone being a construction worker or like, you know, an accountant, like he just has never had a passion for it. It fell on to him. And he's done the same job in the same way every day, right for the last however many years that he's been with her. And so how do you expect somebody with that life to, you know, have be empowered to really go and learn more? I'm not sure, right? These are the actual on the ground challenges. And the owner of that particular zoo, the Usanomiya Zoo in Japan is a is a businessman. He's a three generations in business man, whose father, I think it was his father, he inherited the zoo from and he runs it like a business, like he does not consider it to be an educational facility, or anything like that. Like he he's all about the numbers. We've heard reports that he breeds animals specifically based on their value right now in the market. So if white tigers are the hot entity right now, he'll focus on that so he can sell them, right, breed them and sell them. So I mean, if you look at a leadership like that, how do you like how would they even have the basic awareness to educate their staff, right to around sort of like, say, with elephants, like a specialist. So one of our concerns is that because Miyako is probably very attached to her keeper, given he's been with her throughout her whole life, regardless of whether he's an elephant, you know, passionate about elephants in particular, which it doesn't sound like he is, he probably has formed some sort of attachment to her too, unless he's got no heart. And so we're worried that when he retires, you know, she's going to lose that most meaningful connection in her life and the consequences that may have on her. So you know, that that's just one one of the sort of considerations. But I'm telling you this just to illustrate the many challenges, cultural, financial, and this particular zoo, the private zoo is in a very rural area in Japan. And it's not sorry, not very rural, but it's not in an urban setting, right. So people have to really travel quite a bit to get there. And, you know, all of these non urban zoos and zoos in general right now in Japan are losing public interest, they're having less visitors. So that's adding an additional stress on these these zoos to try and, you know, be economically, whatever it is, they call it right. And so yeah, so it's tough, it's tough, because I'm on the same page as you, Yvonne, like I'm an animal advocate, I have been my whole life, it just doesn't none of it makes sense to me. And yet, having learned about these challenges and hearing these this information from the ground, you just start to see that it is a it is a, you know, there it's a, there's a multitude of factors, right, that play in. And so that's where we're really trying to educate the awareness piece and hoping that we can bridge understanding and gaps, and really provide help, if anything, right, and education. So that that's, that's where we think that we can have the most value.

Y - So if this is run as a business, and the business is losing money, and as you say, if, for instance, tigers are the saleable item . So usually, there's an elephant or anything that would like, you know, that people would like to rescue, the offer is normally made by some organization or another, can we buy that elephant and put them in the sanctuary? It rarely happens because, you know, zoos are not generally that much of a business, you know, normally there's public property and everything else. But in that particular case, if he's selling animals, has anybody ever tried or was there ever any chance of fundraising to get this one elephant out of there? A- Yeah, that's absolutely our goal. And we've thought about that angle, because he is so financially driven. The issue with this is that he's we've had a tremendously challenging time having him engage with us. So as I mentioned to you, we started a petition for her now nearly five years ago, and every single day, we send him, I believe it's in the hundreds of emails from people who have signed the petition. That's been happening every day for all these years. And we've sent him, you know, multiple letters requesting, you know, communication, we've offered to send people over there to, you know, provide free services to her just as a kind of, you know, goodwill, show of goodwill, and he just has not been responsive to us at all. And what he has done instead, is he started his own crowdfunding campaign. y - No. A - Yes, he raised 20 $30,000. I believe it was don't quote me exactly on that, because I'm not sure what the exchanges and stuff. And he built a little pool in her already tiny enclosure, which you probably seen recent pictures and didn't even notice it is so tiny. It's like a puddle. And not only did that take away additional surface space for her in what little space she has to just walk in tiny circles around, it must have been really scary for her with all the construction and not knowing what was happening. And she doesn't really use the pool. She was too scared of it. It's just it's literally probably would come up to your waist at most. Right. I mean, it's negligible because you don't even know she probably can't fit in it because the yard is so small. No, she can't fit in it. And I do think recently she's been spraying a little bit. She's gotten curious. I mean, how could she not write and just like started to play around. And the problem is he he's he's gotten a lot of positive press from that. And now he's got this now now there's this new group of local defenders who have become really charged up in making the case that he truly cares. Look at what he did. You know, me. I was cared for. She's loved and they call themselves me. I go fans and they are kind of become defendants of her and her like that her her zoo and her situation. And they're very like aggressive on social media. And so that's been a new challenge. And then also he got all of that press. He got a ton of local press and a ton of national press in doing this crowdfunding. And so in a way, I'm you know, he's almost and I don't I mean, I don't know for certain, but did he put all that money towards this tiny pool? Right. Or has he come on to another money making scheme? I mean, we don't know. So that's it's a new resistance for us. Right. Because Miyako is is one of the foremost elephants always because of her her situation and also because we still think there's hope for her and that if we could get her even to a group setting in a larger environment, you know how significant that could be for her. And so yeah, it's it's really unfortunate. So we're we're in a bit of a yeah, I mean, we're in a bit of a sort of point where we're we're like, what what next? And of course, we're consulting with others and partners and trying to figure out how to navigate this. But, you know, this is a very different situation, as you can, you know, as just in our conversation, you'll know from the Hanako situation and the Miyako. What do you do when the zoo is not receptive? Y - there's one thing that springs to mind is that, people like myself are on social media every day. And usually, we're global. So I'll wake up to a message from someone in Australia or Canada or America or somewhere saying, have you seen this? And then I'll part, you know, or I'll see something first and I'll do exactly the same for other advocates. And if we saw something like that, surely we we go numbers on something like that and saying, whoa, you know, what are you doing? Or do you realize this money is going there and really this elephant just needs to get out? And I suppose that's another thing. Whereas it's in Japan, a lot of people aren't seeing it. how did all that happen? And so many people not see it because I'm surprised they weren't didn't have a barrage of, you know, people saying, no, this is not good. You know, what what do you do? And I find this a lot really is just it's it's frustrating, isn't it? Which you must find frustrating as well that, you know, when you need the numbers, when you need people to pile in, not rudely or aggressively, but just say, hang on a minute, that's not a good idea. And this is why it isn't a good idea. All of a sudden, sometimes organizations, such as if you're on your own, as you say, how do you deal with it? You know, if you've all of a sudden, you've got which it might be, he's just decided to do something, you know, to quiet everybody down. You know, it might be not his money going in there. You know, and it could be zoo support, you know, the zoo workers, anybody doing the, you know, all the comments and being quite ferocious on social media. But if you've got nobody, you know, no numbers, and I use the term keyboard warriors, but on the other hand, we are quite useful at times, you know, we can we can, you know, combat stuff that people who are trying to negotiate and build relationships with you can't do that. The rest of us can do that, you know, but we can also try and dampen down fires. And it's just unbelievable that, as you say that all that press got given for a puddle, when an elephant basically is like she's on the lazy Susan, she literally can spin around on on the concrete slab and can't move, let alone put in a tiny little puddle of appalling. So it's one of those things, isn't it? That we don't we just somehow, I don't know how to do it. We kind of need to see more of Japan elephants, really, I think we need to have it more in our mind each day us in the West and us in Europe, you know, we've got to start looking more for the ones further afield. It's bizarre, really, because we sort of see elephants in Thailand and in other countries, again, more than we see in Japan. And the sort there's 100 elephants in Japan. I mean, you know, I thought there was about 20. You know, it's staggering the number that there's still I don't know, are they all old? Or are they still getting new ones in?

A- Well, that's the other battle we now face, which is that, well, I don't want this to all be really dark and negative. So it's not it's not dark. It's trying to sort things out and highlight what's happening, because we don't really know. Yeah. So what I would say is on a positive note, there has been, you know, and it's a campaign that we have, increasing trend towards going elephant free in Japan. So Hanako Zoo, that does the elephant that started this all, you know, and that our organization was founded in her honor in the start, we've dropped that part of it for the sake of brevity. But our organization's initial name was Elephants in Japan in memory of Hanako, because our mission was to make sure that there would be, you know, that no other Hanako's in Japan would have to suffer the plight that she had to. And so that's why we did end up focusing on solitary elephants, which by the way, there are currently 12 that we know of in the country. And Miyako is one of them and her situation is quite, quite dire. And so so the elephant free trend that you know, Koshiro is your director, after the death of Hanako, he began to go out into the community and see we're an elephant free zoo now, you know, we don't have the capacity to properly house an elephant. So that that's, that's great. And there is a new trend we are seeing in that when the elephants in a certain zoo, the last one dies, there has been a trend towards changing that enclosure into an art exhibit. We've seen that at one zoo. We also worked, there was a really sad case of a solitary elephant named Himeko, who was one of our original campaign elephants that Dr. Keith Lindsay went and visited and her situation was really awful. She displayed some very, very disturbing stereotypical behavior. And she was in quite a bit of distress, we think she's the elephant featured in the cover of our report. Anyway, she passed away a couple of years ago, and we worked with the Japan Association of zoos and aquariums, who helped us, you know, in communication with the director of the zoo at that that zoo, which is the Himenji City Zoo in Japan, and they agreed that they would not replace Himeko or get other elephants. So there is a positive trend towards this. And we, as a group feel this is an opportunity to applaud that as an international community. So here's a way for people to, you know, because one of the issues is that Japan is a very insular country. It is a isolated country. It is an island, right? And so the if we if we, you know, we've been able to garner tremendous support from the international community. That's how this was all made possible. I don't think anyone would know about Miyako or elephants in Japan had Hanako not happened. And that was thanks to nearly half a million people around the world signing that petition. And so, you know, and share right tweeting about Miyako none of this would have happened if it were not for that support that you mentioned, aren't you activists, whatever true, you know, animal advocates, they did, you know, jump to action. And even if that was just the signing of a petition, it did make a difference. And it can make a difference. And so, you know, I think that we have had tremendous success there. And I and I completely hear what you're saying. And that can be a very useful tool to date. We've collected elephants in Japan, over 2.5 million signatures for solitary elephants in Japan. Yes. Yes. And so we are able and there are people that that follow our work and care and will take that action. And that is can and can be a powerful tool. That being said, you know, I think we need to be very careful to not make it an us against them. Right. Because the reality is we say things like Japan such an advanced country and they're so behind in animal welfare. Well, so are most countries in the world, including America here. Right. There are elephants living in just as deprived conditions. So I don't think it's I think it's it's concerning when it turns into that. And so we have to be very delicate. And as I said, I'm Japanese. You know, my parents are Japanese. My family is Japanese. I lived in Japan for years. I know that there are very compassionate people and that if they have the education and the awareness, there will be a tipping point. And that's why I mentioned things like this new term that's suddenly now emerging in the media, the younger folks who are actually like more interested in welfare, how Hanako was the most receptive to the young woman. Like there's things that will eventually happen. We want it to happen a lot faster. And that's why education and awareness is our biggest goal. But it has to be done with a level of diplomacy and with respect to the culture there. And that's our our sort of our biggest challenge right now that I think we're trying to navigate. And so when we look at the situation in Miyako and those advocates that I mentioned to you, the Miyako fans that are causing some issues now, some division. Right. And they're all Japanese. So if we so think about that, if the if the Miyako fans on social media are Japanese and they're defending the zoo and they're saying she's fine where she is and you know, look at them, they're making this effort. They got her this pool. If you can imagine yourself in their cultural realm, right, with what I mentioned, there isn't a lot of a culture of advocacy. Maybe they see that. And I don't know for sure, because I'm not there, but this is just an assumption as progressive. Right. And then they see people from around the world saying that's not enough. It does become this like issue. And so the most important thing is to empower people within Japan, I think, right, to make them understand and see that there is even far more of a way to improve the lives. And so it's challenging, like, so they have this power because they're on the ground. Right. And so as much noise as we can make, I think that there needs to be more of a local awareness and a local, you know, group of people that can step in, as you mentioned, and say, No, there's actually a better way. And so that's really the gap we're trying to reach, you know, and it's that education awareness and building bridges, like I mentioned, we're trying to work with local advocacy groups, we, you know, are in contact with JAZA, the Japan Aquarium, you know, and Japan Association of Seasons and Aquariums, and that's, and through education. So like, you know, some of these, these academias, like, we've heard that, for instance, Japan's actually really advanced in their primatology welfare. So there is somewhere where they have, you know, they are advanced in that sense. And so how do we elevate that, right, and then, you know, hopefully make it kind of spread through other arenas, and so on. So, so yeah, I think I think those are some of the challenges to be aware of, and we are aware of them. And that's kind of where we're tightly focused on moving ahead. Y - Okay, that's really interesting, because it is, as you say, it's a hard one, really. The animal's not going to stay silent when they see any animal anywhere, you know. As you say, it's, it's such a hard one, because on one hand, that animal's only got one life, and if it'd be stay silent and hopes things will change, 200 years later, things haven't changed, something's not working. So it's really good to know, and very, very interesting, that the education, as you say, with university and Dr. Lindsay was invited in, and with the new term, you know, how people are talking about being advocates for animals, that things are changing within the system. A - Slowly, but yes, and I should also mention that some of the more, the less conservative major newspapers in the country, so think about like a New York Times has covered the topic of elephants in Japan, they've done a full feature on Miyako, for instance, citing Dr. Keith Lindsay as this international expert that came in and citing some of his input. So you know, there is impact being made. And again, I don't think anyone would know about solitary captive elephants in Japan, if it were not for this awareness we've been able to create, thanks to the support of the global community as well, right. So, so definitely, I think so. And I think the other thing I was going to mention before I forget, is that one of the challenges we do have that you had asked at the start of this question is that they are still importing elephants. And there's a new trend in Japan towards importing groups of four elephants. And they're doing this by, we think, allegedly, we were, we cannot say for certain, they're finding loopholes, because right now there is a ban against the importation of wild elephants, right. But they're now bringing in elephants, groups of elephants through Myanmar. And we think there they may have found a loophole in which these elephants they get put through, I'm just trying to remember the exact situation because I don't want to misrepresent it. But basically, there's like a way that Myanmar is bringing wild elephants and putting them in logging camps saying that they were captive. And so that way, they're able to find that that loophole, if that makes sense. So the pandemic actually caused some delays. But there was a group of four that just got brought in, I believe it was last year into the northern, the northern most region of Japan, they built a not large enough, but larger than some of the ones you see in our campaigns, enclosure and brought in for for young elephants. And they're doing I believe three female one male right now is what we're seeing for breeding purposes. And so this is a really worrying trend. We've heard reports from two zoos that are intending on doing the same. And we've just put out a petition to try and stop one of them anyways, at least from an awarenessed standpoint. But a lot of times by the time these deals come to our purview, they've already been made years ago. And our partner organization, zoo check, which is incredible, please check them out. If you haven't yet, they're based out of Canada. And they've just been such a tremendous partner and mentor organization to us. They've done work behind the scenes to try and stop these deals. But again, they're having a hard time because it's all about we need more people in Japan who are advocating for this and becoming aware of this because we don't know what's happening in the government, right. And so even if we had a handful of people who understood government there, and could keep an eye on what's happening behind the scenes, or, you know, within these institutions, that could make a huge difference. And we that's a tremendous gap that I don't think elephants in Japan is going to be able to fill in any time in the near future. But that could be a very big, big asset to to driving change. And, you know, bigger change much faster, is if there was a group or some advocates in Japan that were, you know, able to understand the laws and the government and get some sort of insider information, you know, on what's happening there, how the system works, how these deals are made, and, and so on. So that's something that the country and the effort really, really needs. And I, you know, hope something emerges, we've had a few advocacy groups that we've spoken to that we thought maybe we're getting there, but, but not quite. Y - Okay, you know, they're there with the government. Yeah, will the government ever talk about animals in captivity? You know, will they ever sit down? I don't know, you know, if you put it under a biodiversity heading under a climate heading, you know, or do the government just absolutely have no interest whatsoever in what happens to wildlife? A - No, I don't, I don't think that's the case at all. I think that there is. So I would need to get back to you on it, because I don't have it off the top of my head that there is an animal welfare law that I believe gets reviewed every four years. And, you know, groups do lobby to have it amended, it encompasses companion animals and all animals in captivity. And so we know we're aware of that. And then we were speaking with a Japanese politician who actually supports animal welfare. And he was running for office. And we spoke to him in, you know, and he mentioned our report on his Twitter in 2020. So in the summer of 2021, he communicated with us and he told us that he'd started what, you know, the translation is a federation for studying and promoting animals welfare. And he told us that it was a network and collaborative group of Japanese politicians, including house members from various parties and factions, and that the purpose of the group is to protect, promote and secure the welfare of all kinds of animals and living beings, including livestock and entertainment animals, not just companion animals, because, you know, as I mentioned, right now, it's all just kind of lumped into one. And so, you know, at the time, he shared that he hadn't been able to dedicate much time to conduct activities for this animal welfare organization, but that he planned to start working on it full scale after the election. And so, you know, one of the activities he said he would focus on would include studying and drafting of a law and regulation of zoos in Japan, because he told us that there are no zoos laws right now in Japan yet. And so that election took place in October 2021. And very unfortunately, he didn't win that election. But, you know, I guess so, so that he it just you need someone like him in government to get rolling. That's what you really need, isn't it? If we could bridge that gap between people like him and these people he mentions, like the house members from various parties, and create like a network of knowledge, you know, that's really cooperative and really avoids the us versus them, because we can't speak. We're not, you know, like, I mean, we, I don't we don't need to get into that. But, you know, Y - I know you mean you need someone to start, don't you need someone to, to pick up the ball and at the end of the day, this represents a country.how everybody treats animals is pretty much, you know, a lot of people do judge people on it, you know, that's just, as you say, wherever you are in the world, you know, there's a lot of people that say, Oh, they do this in America, they do this in the UK, they do this in Canada, you know, they do this in Australia, you know, and you can almost see that wildlife, you know, what they do to all these animals all over the place. And it's not just advocates, the awareness, I think, probably more so since COVID. You know, people watched a lot more, they've learned a lot more really, when they've been stuck in their houses, I think they so it's really interesting to know what the problems are. And, you know, it's still a long, long journey to go on, isn't it? But one one sort of final issue really, is although we've seen the 14 or so elephants in these horrible barns on these horrible concrete slabs, the other elephants, because you did say this many more, although I'm a I appreciate they don't have acres and acres of safari parks, do they actually are that? Do they actually have some grass and some fields? And are there actually some habitats and some elephants living better? A- Yeah, there are better zoos in Japan, for sure. And we've looked into those as well, because our hope was that if we could establish any form of communication with the private zoo owner of Miyako Zoo, we could propose on the ground transport of her to one of these better zoos, because getting her to sanctuary, I mean, I don't know how much you've looked into the costs, you know, in your other interviews, but it's it's not cheap. Y - It's not cheap, but there's always someone willing to step up for it. I have to say celebrities and people seem to be very, very generous about it. A- Oh, absolutely. I agree. And we've got we've got a sanctuary in Thailand who has said that they would take her, you know, we've got Carol said she would take her, although that would be a little bit further of a journey. I think it would make more sense for her to go home to Thailand. But also, it's it's also could be a little risky for her for her health. Right. And because Japan is such a small country, we thought that one of the options that we could look into is land transporting her. It would not be a long journey to get her to a better zoo or even just a transition to see how she adapts right to a better environment. But again, all of these things we could rule out in a flash if we could just get this owner to show any receptivity. But unfortunately, it seems like he's gone and created his own kind of PR campaign, so to speak. And we do know at one point he had started, you know, becoming kind of at least irritated by us because he put on the Facebook page the zoo's Facebook page. Please stop talking negatively about the zoo and you know how we keep Miyako. We took that as a sign of encouragement because that means we're getting through to him. But then this whole thing happens. So we're in a political thing. And again, without more Japanese people on the ground, it can be presented as a hey, what are you doing coming into our country and telling us how to keep our animals? Right. And so that's what we really need to avoid. So so yeah, definitely. I would say that although they have to expect things from tourists, don't they? If they're if they're happy, they're welcoming tourists through the gate, they're going to get they're going to get a review, aren't they? Well, that's always on our minds, too. And with the 2020 Olympics that was meant to happen in the country, that sort of only half have happened because of COVID. That was one of our pushes, right? Like they, they did. The country doesn't want bad PR, right, to be known as a country that's lags in in an area that's becoming increasingly important to people, as you mentioned. So I think there is something with that. In the case of Miyako, the zoo is not a tourist destination. It's a locals destination. And I think, yeah, and I think that's also why we got more receptivity from that Tokyo Zoo, because they are a tourist destination, whereas the one in Utsunomiya, they're a more of a rural kind of state, so to speak. And again, I mentioned it's it's you got to check out I've been there, you got to take a long train and buses, you know, it's not easy. And so I think many of the zoo's visitors, I customer base is local, and he knows that right. So, you know, I were trying to find different angles. You know, maybe yeah, we have plans for sure to do another ramp up. And so I would encourage anyone listening who's interested to follow us on all social media channels also sign me a close position, because we will be sending out updates, but we are actually right as we speak now that we've sent the latest campaign letter with signatures from 116,000 people around the world to ask the 10 noji zoo in Osaka to not replace their elephant that passed away with under really horrific and painful conditions due to neglect and foot care. We you know, we are read refocusing on me a co, and we're going to do another major push in the coming months. So, you know, we're not we're not giving up, you know, and it's like, that's the thing. It's a long haul. It's always a long haul. You know, it's a multi pronged approach like I just did an interview with a great organization that's focused on law in Asia, animal welfare law. And you know, the ideas, we do have that gap though. And you know, there's only like we are an awareness and education focused organization. And we're really good at that. But when it does come to the on the ground folks, the people that can infiltrate or at least build bridges with the zoo community, the educational community and critically this law like look at this potential if this politician is got this group, he didn't win. He's, you know, I should mention from what I've learned from folks over there like local people, he's a small time politician, like, you know, he's still he's not, he's not one of the big runners. But, you know, then that's, that's part of the reason why this probably isn't, you know, has not taken off as much. But if we can get Intel, even just information, people over there who can provide us with information, you know, so that we can strengthen the network, you know, and make it a global effort, not an us versus them or, you know, effort, then I think there's a real opportunity to drive faster and bigger change. And that's what I keep saying now and hope that someone out there listening knows somebody who can spark a new movement on the ground in Japan or lead us to somebody who maybe, you know, understands government and can take home isn't it? Y - That's the take home from today. Yeah. And I hope that people listening, we will put your website due to details up with the podcast. And I hope people, you know, will really gain a good insight here. I know I have. And I thank you ever so much for your time today. So yes, we'll keep an eye out for the next campaigns and certainly, you know, follow each other on social media, as you know, a lot of people will, especially when it comes to elephants. And you know, if there's ever a time when you think, right, we need someone to push then, you know, we'll all keep an eye out to try and, you know, give everybody a push. If everybody around the world keeps pushing, as you say, you raised millions of signatures, you know, in the past and that's what you need. So and hopefully one day you'll be back here telling me that you've got that bridge, you've got that gap and you've got that politics. A- Oh my goodness. Well, the goal is let's get one elephant. We know that if we can get one elephant moved in Japan, that will begin a tipping point because people will start to see. OK. And the ultimate goal, of course, is for us to establish an elephant sanctuary in southern Japan. That's the ultimate goal of the organization at this time, our biggest mission and our biggest sort of site that we have set our eyes on. And so just to like close off Dr. Keith Lindsay, an amazing elephant expert. He started studying elephants. First hand in the Amazon jungle is amazing. Yeah. And he has he has taken an interest to advocate for elephants in Japan. And we are so grateful. And so he you know, we put out an update that people can go to our website Elephants in Japan.com and go to the report section. We put out a new update in twenty twenty one. It's just a short document. It's 12 pages and it really kind of gives an overview of who the elephants are right now. The solitary elephants in Japan, you can find links to each one of the petitions for them and sign them and stay that way connected to each elephant and the activities that are being carried out for them and any progress that will be made. But he for this for this update on our website provided a statement. So I just thought I'd read it to close this out because I know we're almost out of time, but I think it's just really wonderful to hear from somebody that's credible, right, and really understands what elephants need in order to have their basic basic needs. And so he says since my report on Japan's solitary elephants was released, I have been encouraged by the implementation of measures to improve elephant welfare in Japan. However, much more can and should be done to better better the lives of captive elephants in the country. If they are to play any justifiable role in the twenty first century, all zoos must make significant changes to their mandate, moving away from exhibition for casual public entertainment to achieve biologically meaningful animal welfare, genuinely informative education on the natural lives of wild species and meaningful meaningful support for in-situation conservation initiatives. The Japan Association of Zoos and Aquariums, which I mentioned many times in this interview, and relevant government ministries should develop guidelines for elephant management in consultation with internationally established elephant biologists and welfare experts. So that's one of the critical bridges that I mentioned. He says elephant enclosures must be increased substantially in size and environmental complexity to allow the voluntary formation of social groups appropriate for both males and females and to provide the mental stimulation afforded by freely chosen opportunities for foraging and movement. All solitary elephants, especially at substandard facilities, must be moved so they can join others and their exhibits should be closed. Since it is ultimately impossible for any captive facility and locations outside elephants natural range to provide appropriate and acceptable living conditions, the importing and breeding of elephants for a life in captivity for any reason must be discontinued. Moreover, the development of true elephant sanctuaries in Japan, where elephants can be allowed to live out their final days in relatively humane surroundings merits serious consideration while the keeping of elephants is gradually phased out entirely. So I think that sums it up pretty well. Y - It does wise words. Absolutely. Thank you very much for joining me today and I hope that we can pick up again another time with everything that's been going on because it's a really valuable insight for a lot of people around the world. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. We really appreciate you showing an interest and and helping us tell the story.